Homelessness Services Oversight Hearing — Federal Funding, Los Angeles & Fraud Allegations — September 15, 2026

14:29This hearing of the Subcommittee on Delivering on Government Efficiency will come to order. I want to welcome everyone. Without objection, the chair may declare a recess at any time, and I recognize myself for the purpose of making an opening statement.

14:43Good afternoon. The plight of our nation's homeless tugs at our heartstrings. It is painful to see people living on streets or in shelters. Those caught in the cycle of homelessness are often drug addicted mentally ill or both They need help But the homeless services provided today in many of our largest cities are not working In fact they are making the problem worse There are 745 homeless Americans, according to a recent federal report.

15:06Two-thirds live in emergency shelters and the other quarter million live on the streets. The situation is only getting worse. Homelessness is up 27 percent since 2013 and street homelessness is up 36 percent. Why?

15:24It's not due to lack of funding. The federal government spends about $8 billion annually to prevent homelessness and states and localities spend even more. Yet homeless encampments keep spreading, especially in cities like Los Angeles and Seattle, where left-wing political leaders are digging in on failed policies.

15:40These jurisdictions enable crime and chaos, allowing public housing units to become more drug dens and even subsidizing the so-called safe injection of dangerous narcotics by addicts. Los Angeles is the epicenter of America's homelessness.

15:56It has the nation's largest homeless population that spends the most to combat the problem. Yet the number of homeless in LA has recently risen to 50,000 people. Another 75,000 homeless live in the surrounding LA County.

16:12LA's Skid Row is a sad testament to the abject failure of this city's approach to homelessness. Under Mayor Karen Bass, law and order in the neighborhood has collapsed. Attics inject needles in open drug markets controlled by gangs.

16:29The remaining businesses, typically small minority-owned establishments, struggle to survive in streets where lawlessness reigns. So who benefits from the billions spent combating homelessness in L.A.? Look no further than the network of local nonprofits raking in federal, state, and local dollars to provide homeless services.

16:48Most of these entities got grants or contracts from the Los Angeles Homeless Service Authority – or LASA – a public authority jointly controlled by the City and County of Los Angeles. LASA is the main L.A. area conduit for public funds for homelessness services.

17:08And LASA is rife with corruption and financial mismanagement. This outfit is housed in a luxury high-rise in downtown LA with a private helipad and Mercedes-Maybach car service for tenants. If you don know Maybach is the high of the Mercedes brand Mayor Bass controls many appointments to Lhasa government board She appointed herself to the board back in 2023 but has not shown up for most board meetings Despite her poor attendance record, her fingerprints are all over Lhasa.

17:40The authority gave a $40,000 per month contract to a former Bass campaign manager, who had then hired as its CEO. Once in charge, the advisor gave a $2 million LASA contract to her husband's employer, an L.A.-based nonprofit.

17:56LASA also provided $25 million over five years to a nonprofit whose CEO received $1.6 million in compensation over a recent two-year period while living in Hawaii. LASA recently doled out funds to an L.A.-area nonprofit whose CEO had just been indicted for fraud by the Justice Department.

18:18This is the tip of the iceberg, folks. A court-ordered independent assessment of LASA's finances found alarming financial control weaknesses that leave the door open to rampant fraud. Yet the chair of LASA's Audit Committee, an advocate of greater scrutiny of LASA spending, was recently removed from his post by Mayor Bass's hand-picked LASA board chair Stephanie Graves, another former campaign advisor.

18:42Finally, just last week, after I invited her to appear at this hearing, Mayor Bass suddenly removed herself from the LASA board. She also declined to appear at this hearing. She said this hearing and document request was a waste of time and money.

18:58Mayor Bass seems intent on evading accountability, but she knows we will not let her off the hook. Her office has agreed to provide dates when she is willing to appear before our subcommittee this year because she knows I will work with Chairman Comer to use every tool at our disposal.

19:12to secure her appearance if she does not cooperate. Meanwhile, we are going to take a good hard look today at homelessness on the streets of Los Angeles and the big leftist-run cities. After this hearing, I will introduce the Recovery First Housing Act, which requires federally funded housing services to offer substance abuse treatment.

19:34But I've also introduced legislation to codify President Trump's work to end crime and disorder on America's streets and ensure our tax dollars only support housing services for U.S. citizens. Before I close, I'm going to play a brief video clip of the reality of homelessness on Skid Row.

20:00All right, back here on LA Skid Row, I went to several locations where they gave me these harm reduction supplies, including meth pipes, needles, all kinds of free drug paraphernalia. You want to pick your hammer?

20:18A hammer?

20:19Hammer, yeah. This is exactly what Secretary Scott Turner was railing against at the press conference.

20:25Apparently this is a hammer.

20:28Secretary Turner says these harm reduction kits will no longer be part of the arsenal to fight the homeless drug crisis ravaging our streets. Turner says it's essentially enabling. Thanks for speaking to my friend and five kids.

20:42For the most part, at these harm reduction facilities, you'll have workers giving out these drug supplies, no questions asked. But what they fail to do is ask if the addict wants any treatment or recovery.

20:52And that is the missing link to the street crisis right now that is unending in places like Los Angeles.

21:00This is not the continuum of care that I'm looking for. It's not the continuum of care that Bobby is looking for. This is keeping people addicted and giving them a way to stay addicted.

21:17I have in my hand one of those packets and I just found a crack pipe in there. the first one I've ever held. But with that, I will yield to ranking member Stansbury for her

21:30opening remarks. All right. Well, thank you, Mr. Chairman. I do have to say that once again, this committee has deteriorated over the last several months. I was hopeful at the beginning of my partnership with the chairman that we would actually move forward in a serious manner in addressing the issues that are affecting our country to deal with real waste fraud and abuse to deal with real accountability of our government and the officials who are actually taking advantage of our federal system to actually reduce waste in our government and to actually improve the the services and programs that actually serve our people.

22:11But instead, we are here once again after our last hearing on the Smithsonian in a deeply unserious and political show targeting the lowest income and most vulnerable people in the United States Let me just make clear Our people are not political props.

22:40Their dignity is not negotiable. Housing is a human right. And we're not going to sit here while you use the housing and homeless crisis of this country to try to prop up whatever you're trying to do politically before the midterms.

23:00So I want to know what this hearing is actually about. Ostensibly, it's supposed to be about housing and homelessness, strangely in Los Angeles, as we sit here in our nation's capital. Ostensibly, it's supposed to be about waste, fraud, and abuse.

23:16As it was literally reported yesterday that the president's son had his wedding parties hosted by a Russian oligarch tied to Vladimir Putin. As literally, we have not had a single public hearing on the Epstein files.

23:32As we have not even had Todd Blanche in front of this committee in a formal hearing. So what is this hearing actually about? We're two days before the speaker is going to call it quits before the midterms.

23:48And basically, this hearing is being called to attack unhoused people, to talk about the failed policies of this administration. Because if you were actually serious about helping low-income people, you would not have passed the Big Ugly Bill last year.

24:04Because what that bill and that policy is doing is making poor people even poorer. In fact, it increased taxes on the lowest income Americans out there. Like, that is not an exaggeration. The lowest earning Americans had their taxes go up under the Big Ugly Bill.

24:22It gutted food assistance for millions of Americans, the vast majority of whom are seniors and children. It gut health insurance starting on January 1st. Medicaid and Medicare is going to be cut for tens of millions of Americans.

24:36It gutted educational assistance for students all over the country. And why? What was it done to give a permanent tax break to billionaires? Right now, this country is experiencing the highest inflation it has experienced since COVID.

24:53Because your president who you refuse to hold in check is waging an unmandated unfunded war in the Middle East that is driving up gas prices to the highest level they have ever been during a Labor Day weekend in the history of the United States, which is driving up housing costs, construction costs, food costs, transportation costs, literally every cost across the board.

25:16In fact, we're about to see an increase likely from the Fed in our interest rates because of skyrocketing inflation. And the only housing legislation that has passed this body of substance in years, in fact, it was the most comprehensive bipartisan housing legislation passed probably in three decades in this body just a few months ago, the President of the United States, Donald Trump, refused to sign because he was having a temper tantrum.

25:48Now, it took effect. But it would not have happened if it hadn't been from the leadership, particularly of our Senate Democrats and the ranking member of the Financial Services Committee here in the House.

26:00And so what is this hearing actually about? Can't be about the stellar housing policies of HUD. They've literally been gutting Housing First programs. Y'all have been gutting behavioral health programs to deal with addiction problems.

26:16In fact, Donald Trump proposed to cut a billion dollars in grants to help people that have addiction problems. And meanwhile, the grifter in chief is over there on the other side of Pennsylvania Avenue, literally tweeting out AI images of himself insider trading and making money off the backs of the American people.

26:36That's the waste, fraud, and abuse. So if you're serious about housing, we invite you to work again on a bipartisan basis on affordable housing policies, on investments in behavioral health, and helping people who are struggling to actually reverse the harmful cuts that this administration has put into effect, to reverse the tax increases you put into effect that are harming our people to hold the president accountable and end this war, and to actually help the people that you are trying to claim today you actually care about.

27:09Because housing is a human right and we're going to continue to fight for it. I yield back. Thank you ma'am.

27:19Without objection, Representative Sessions of Texas, Representative Tlaib of Michigan are waved on to the subcommittee for the purpose of asking questions at today hearing And I like to welcome our witnesses First we have Mr Jonathan Cho Mr Cho is a senior fellow and journalist at the Discovery Institute Thank you for being here.

27:40Next we have Mr. Paul Webster. Mr. Webster serves the executive director of the Los Angeles Alliance for Human Rights and a senior fellow at the Cicero Institute. Lastly, we have Ms. Samantha Batko. Ms. Batko serves as a senior fellow at the Urban Institute.

27:58I want to thank you all for joining us. I look forward to your testimony. Pursuant to Committee Rule 9G, the witnesses will please stand up and raise their right hand. Do you solemnly swear or affirm that the testimony that you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?

28:16I help you, God. Let the record show that the witness has answered in the firm. Thank you, and you may take a seat. We appreciate you all being here today and look forward to your testimony.

28:27Let me remind the witnesses that we'll have read your written statement, and it will appear in full in the hearing record. Please limit your oral statements to five minutes. As a reminder, please press the button on the microphone in front of you so that it is on and the members can hear you.

28:43When you begin to speak, the light in front of you will turn green. After four minutes, the light will turn yellow. When the red light comes on, your five minutes have expired, and we would ask that you please wrap up.

28:59Okay. I now recognize Mr. Cho for his opening statement. Hit your button.

29:08My apologies. Thank you, sir, for this opportunity to talk about America's homeless drug crisis. I'd like to begin by playing a short video before my testimony. The Lewiston Scargo is an absolute failure of the housing first model, which essentially warehouses homeless drug addicts.

29:30You smell the sentinel, right? We got out of that.

29:32Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Mike, who's in your room?

29:35Drug use inside the rooms are a regular occurrence. This is a harm reduction place.

29:42This is harm reduction?

29:44Yeah, so they provide, you know, paraphernalia.

29:47Can I get some needles, please, real quick? Needles? Needles? Supplies. Okay, that works.

29:52But, you know, it's whatever.

29:56I got some needles here.

29:58What type of drugs do you have? do you do? Battenol and heroin. You can easily get needles here. Yeah. What other supplies can

30:06you get? Any kind of supplies. What are you going to go get right now? Some chugs, I guess. Here we go. Thank you. What just happened right now? I just bought some shit from somebody.

30:19It's right there. Yeah. How much did that cost? $30.

30:30SRO Housing Corporation.

30:36Fetty, Fetty, Fetty.

30:38This is the 401 SRO, right?

30:41Yeah. He wants to sell us Fetty. We should ask him how much it is.

30:44Okay. Hang on a second. You got Fetty?

30:46Yeah, what do you mean? That's $10. That's $10 for it? Yes, sir. Look at that.

30:50Okay.

30:50Now, you come back, man. I got some more for you. All right. When? Tomorrow? Tonight, tomorrow. When? Do you live there? Yeah. Two and six. SROs are completely unsupervised. It's a free-for-all, and the fact is there's no consequences because that's the whole point of Housing First, is that you move in without any expectations whatsoever.

31:07Our tax dollars are paying this guy to live here to deal fentanyl, the deadliest drug in history, to anybody who walks by at the front door.

31:17Once again, my name is Jonathan Cho. I am a journalist and senior fellow at Discovery Institute based in Seattle. I cover America's homeless drug crisis after spending more than 20 years in corporate media, working for ABC, NBC, CBS, Tribune, and several other networks.

31:34If you did not know already, you just witnessed a snapshot of what happens in and around many of these housing-first facilities across America, especially in West Coast cities like Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, and Los Angeles.

31:49And this is the PG-13 version. Law enforcement data shows these facilities are magnets for crime, chaos, and death, triggering an inordinate amount of 911 calls for drug overdoses, fights, and other disturbances. Once these men and women move in, there are no requirements to find jobs or enroll in drug addiction treatment.

32:11So for the addicts, most of them spend their day chasing the next high on the streets, many cases committing crimes like stealing and then selling items for pennies on the dollar to get their next fix Making matters worse in some cases violent felons and notorious drug dealers end up as residents on the same floor as vulnerable people And some women even become targets for sexual assault or human trafficking.

32:35One man I interviewed told me he felt like his housing first building turned into New Jack City, a reference to a movie about a drug kingpin taking over an entire apartment complex in New York City.

32:52Problem is, life is now imitating art and the cycle continues with more taxpayer dollars being wasted on questionable public health policies tied to Housing First. Most of these buildings are considered low barrier, that means drug use is allowed behind closed doors and staff look the other way.

33:13Then on top of that you can pick up these so-called harm reduction kits at the front desk. Let me show you briefly what's inside. Mr. Burchett, you referred to the meth pipes that you can easily get, but this baggie given out at King County Public Health just minutes from the Seattle Space Needle is called a party pack.

33:35You can get a free meth pipe, you can get a tourniquet, you can get countless needles inside, you can get fentanyl test strips, you can get cookers. They're giving away free drug supplies like candy in the name of harm reduction and preventing disease with zero oversight and rarely any offers for addiction treatment.

34:05In reality, critics say that this is enabling instead of helping. And now people are dying at higher rates behind closed doors of fentanyl overdoses.

34:16Mr. Cho, we're going to have to cut it off there at 5. Thank you, sir. Mr. Webster. I apologize.

34:26Thank you, Chairman Burchett, Ranking Member Stansbury, members of the subcommittee. Thank you very much for holding this hearing. It's long overdue. Last year's point in time count found nearly 70,000 homeless people in Los Angeles.

34:3844,000 were unsheltered. 27,000 were chronically homeless, and six of them die on the street every day. No region in America has more unsheltered people, and no region receives more federal homeless assistance Los Angeles has taken in billion in federal funds SINCE 2005 INCLUDING MILLION IN 2024 IN CONTINUUM OF CARE AWARDS ITS AWARDS ARE UP 213%.

35:09THE CITY AND COUNTY HAVE BUDGETED ANOTHER $4 BILLION OF THEIR OWN MONEY SINCE 2022. HERE'S WHAT THAT BOUGHT. SINCE 2009, THE YEAR THE HEARTH ACT REFORMED FEDERAL HOMELESS ASSISTANCE PROGRAMS, OVERALL HOMELESSNESS IN LOS ANGELES DOUBLED.

35:24sheltered homelessness grew 130%, chronic homelessness rose 20%, and homelessness among people with serious mental illness rose 90%. There is more money than ever before, more capacity than ever before, and more and sicker people on the streets than ever before.

35:36That is the record. Why homelessness grew is not a matter of funding, it's not about adopting the favored evidence-based approaches. LA has tons of money and adopted all the data-driven approaches. Why homelessness grew and is growing is about accountability, and there is absolutely none.

36:03The Los Angeles Homeless Service Authority, LASA, is the region's continuum of care. A 2024 audit found LASA has wasted millions, has unreliable contract and service records, and cannot verify whether the services it paid for had been delivered.

36:19It got worse. A May 2026 review found LASA could not produce complete financial statements, had not properly recorded $145 million in county advances, and carried duplicate entries overstating cash by $47 million. LASA has not completed an internal audit in several years.

36:40HUD is right in suspending funds for LASA. But it's not just untraceable funds paid for units and beds that go empty or corrupt CEOs that feed the homeless instant ramen governed by an imaginary board of directors and use taxpayer dollars to enrich themselves.

36:57It's not just sweetheart deals from Mayor Bass's office that greenlit $27 million in taxpayer grant funds to buy a property from a business purchasing almost simultaneously for $11 million. not just Loss's own chief executive that signed 2.1 million dollars in contracts with the non-profit that employs her husband after telling the public she was completely recused from such dealings.

37:25It the poorly crafted expensive and unworkable system Congress created that was supposed to end homelessness in 2023 This is what happens when billions flow to a network of nonprofits over which no state or local government has authority that measures inputs, beds, salaries, and services billed rather than on whether anyone left the street.

37:48It took HUD roughly a decade to determine that Los Angeles was wasting its awards. of homeless people died in the meantime. Suspension after 10 years is not oversight. I urge subcommittee members to reform the Continuum Care program in three ways.

38:01First, stop funding and empowering entities that voters cannot reach. Route homeless assistance through states and their agencies which answer to an electorate rather than through unaccountable regional nonprofits. Nonprofit consortiums have failed to solve homelessness for the last 10 plus years and when challenged demand more money to continue their ineffective research-based programs.

38:29Second, direct HUD to monitor and to act. Audit findings of mismanagement should not sit for a decade. Performance should be demanded annually because lives are on the line. Third, fix the definition. Federal law and regulation redefines a person as no longer homeless when their names appear on a subsidized lease.

38:49Advocates claim they know how to end homelessness, but it is this definitional gimmick that is the basis for that claim. Ending homelessness should mean earned income, sobriety, mental health stability, family reunification, and completing rehabilitative programs and progress towards self-sufficiency, not a signature or eligibility for a government program.

39:16Los Angeles is not an outlier. It is the poster child for an expensive, socialist, no conditions attached right to housing agenda that can only work by raising taxes, ending private property, and implementing a guaranteed basic income scheme, while turning a blind eye to addiction, untreated mental illness, crime, and civil disorder.

39:37Thank you, Mr. Webster. Ms. Batco, you're recognized.

39:41Chairman Burchett, Ranking Member Sandsbury, and the members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to testify. My name is Samantha Batco. I'm a senior fellow and I lead the Preventing and Ending Homelessness team at the Nonpartisan Urban Institute.

39:41For more than two decades, I have researched and evaluated homelessness programs and worked with trying to reduce homelessness. The views I expressed today are my own and should not be attributed to the Urban Institute, its trustees, or its funders.

40:05I want to begin with a point on which I believe that we can all agree, which is that the status quo is unacceptable. As was noted earlier, more than 745,000 people experienced homelessness on a single night in 2025.

40:21More than 266,000 were living outside in cars or in other places not meant for human habitation. And that included more than 22,000 children living outside on a single night. Communities are spending enormous amounts of money managing this crisis.

40:41Voters are upset that there are people sick and sometimes dying outside on their streets and sidewalks. Taxpayers rightfully expect that resources spent on homelessness will produce visible, measurable results. should be held accountable for the resources that they receive and federal policies and programs should be guided by evidence of what works.

40:58Decades of rigorous research show that homelessness is predominantly driven by challenges extremely low-income households have affording housing and affordable housing trends have been worsening, putting more households at risk and increasing the number of people entering homelessness.

41:16Rises in cost burden for renters have been observed over the last five years in 44 states. And one in five renters ages 18 to 64 reported that they did not pay the full amount of rent or were late with a rental payment at some point in 2025.

41:32Yet only about one in five households eligible for federal housing assistance receives it. As has been discussed today, mental health disorders and substance use are serious concerns for some people experiencing homelessness and access to treatment must improve, but they do not explain homelessness by themselves.

41:51Research also shows that many people experiencing homelessness work. More than half of people in shelters and about 40 percent of people living unsheltered had earned income during the year they experienced homelessness. The fundamental problem is that too many people cannot sustain housing and once homeless cannot re-enter the private rental market.

42:13So what should the federal government do? Ultimately ending widespread homelessness will require more affordable housing, rental assistance, adequate incomes and accessible health care and treatment In addition to that the federal government should learn from communities producing visible measurable reductions in homelessness I lead the evaluation of Denver All in Mile High initiative Denver has reported a 64% reduction in unsheltered homelessness over three years.

42:41Our evaluation found a 93% reduction in encampments in downtown Denver. Denver did not achieve this by mandating treatment, passing an anti-camping ban, shifting from focusing on permanent housing to transitional housing or by moving people from one block to another.

42:58The city used real-time data, coordinated across agencies and service providers, expanded accessible shelter, connected people to housing and maintained cleared encampment sites. Other communities including Dallas, Philadelphia, Houston, San Diego and Indianapolis are also reporting reductions in unsheltered homelessness using similar strategies.

43:21Federal policy should be guided by and incentivize these effective practices, not undermine them. Over the last 40 years, federal homelessness programs have evolved through local innovation, rigorous evaluation, and congressional action. That process has produced interventions with substantial evidence behind them.

43:42By contrast, for many of the strategies discussed so far today, I'm aware of no rigorous, replicable studies that they reduce homelessness. Treatment should be available and accessible to people who need it, but the homelessness system cannot substitute for lacks in availability or effectiveness of substance treatment, and mandatory treatments cannot correct a shortage of affordable housing.

44:06Congress and federal agencies should require clear performance measures, careful monitoring, and meaningful consequences when grantees misuse funds or fail to perform. At the same time, major policy changes should be tested and evaluated before being implemented nationwide.

44:23But communities do not have to wait to make progress. They can reduce homelessness today by helping more people return to housing, prevent avoidable entries into homelessness, and improve access to treatment and employment. As I conclude my remarks, I want to reiterate that we do not have to live with widespread homelessness.

44:42We should invest in strategies that visibly and measurably reduce homelessness. Thank you, and I look forward to your questions.

44:49Thank you, ma'am.

44:51I will now recognize Representative Clowd of Texas for his questions Thank you Mr Chairman and I want to thank you for holding this hearing Once again we find ourselves discussing an important topic and the focus of this committee has been really on waste, fraud, and abuse, and I appreciate what we've kind of come.

45:11We thought this was going to really be a bipartisan effort. Everybody has long said we're against waste, fraud, and abuse, but as we begin to dig into these issues, what we find is a common theme is much of what's been going out as taxpayer dollars is being funneled through these NGOs and they're unaccountable, many of them.

45:32We're finding a lot of waste, fraud, and abuse and it's really turned into what we found to be almost the largest money laundering scheme in human history. Does that mean every person working at these is negligent or no?

45:47There's probably some people doing some good work, but what we've seen is a lot of waste, and abuse in this. And once again, politicians kind of get to pat themselves on the back by how much money they send out as opposed to are we accomplishing the goals and initiatives and objectives that we set them out to accomplish.

46:03You know, one thing that's clear from the data, and I'll admit the data is kind of sketchy, that's probably one of the things we can talk about is how to improve the data on this.

46:10But there's no direct correlation to spending more money and more people coming off the streets and not being homeless. You can look at just comparing the entire state of Texas to Los Angeles. Los Angeles gets $20 million more than the entire state of Texas, yet has roughly three times the homelessness problem.

46:31And so there's a lot of work that needs to be done. Mr. Cho, you didn't get a chance to finish your opening statements. Could you speak to, finish speaking to what our tax dollars are going to?

46:43You would think that it would be a pretty broad agreement that tax dollars should not be going to fund drug use and paraphernalia. But yet that's not what's happening, is it?

46:53Yes, sir. Our position is that you cannot build your way out of this crisis. And a common theme that we're seeing is the total lack of accountability. It is an absolute free-for-all in many of these West Coast cities that I cover, such as Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, and Los Angeles.

47:13A lot of this money, once it is doled out, ends up in a black hole, and you don't know where the

47:20dollars end up going And the lack of measurable results is stunning and that must change immediately Yeah and Texas I know we work to provide a business environment which means bringing jobs in we tend to find that that a better path forward getting people jobs helps them provide for a home for their families and those sort of things as opposed to LA who's handing out drug paraphernalia.

47:39Mr. Webster one of the issues is how the data is collected and part of it is how we define success how we define homelessness Sometimes the definition of solving homelessness is actually when you kind of become a ward of the state in a sense, like the federal government's paying for you to exist, but you're not really having any sort of forward momentum in life.

48:04You're not, you know, growing up or becoming more prosperous. You're not, you know, being able to lay down a legacy for your family. Are these things that we would hope for people? Could you speak to some of that and what we could do to improve that?

48:17Yes, sir.

48:18Thank you for your question. I think one of the challenges is what the objectives are for the Continuum of Care program. The Continuum of Care program had certain purposes, for example, to coordinate a region-wide response to homeless, to prevent homelessness, and to do some other things.

48:39I think one of the challenges is that there's kind of a difference in terms of what we're trying to measure. On the one hand, there's a whole host of research that really tries to measure housing stability, whether or not people are gonna be able to stay in the housing that is provided them.

49:00But then there's other folks who are interested in an objective to say, is the money that we're spending to reduce homelessness, is it actually reducing homelessness? And so the challenge is when you get very difficult to read data sources when you have pretty complex kinds of reporting from HUD about demographics instead of how many people are actually coming off the street, or how many people are actually in permanent supportive housing, the main intervention for housing, and how many of them, and I know Ms. Batko has actually studied this, is how many people actually stay in that housing.

49:42And the challenge is that we're just not connecting the dots between the money that we spend, the services and the provisions that we provide, and what that impacts in terms of actual people who are living and dying on the streets, and what kind of behavioral health, what kind of challenges, what kind of earning potential, what kind of criminality, all weaves into this thing.

50:05So I agree with you. I think we need much better accountability and much better measures that we

50:11actually monitor. Thank you. Mr. Lynch, you're recognized from Massachusetts. Thank you. Thank

50:19you, Mr. Chairman. You know, if this hearing was really about, I want to talk about homelessness and substance abuse and the problems we got in this country. But to do so under the premise that this hearing is about waste, fraud, and abuse is ridiculous.

50:39If we were really after waste, fraud, and abuse, and money laundering, and scams, I know the address. I know where we could go. You know, Fraud Central, Scam Central, you know, over $2 billion raked in since January of 2025.

50:58And that address is 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue, and the main perpetrator is Donald Trump. So if we were really interested in that line of investigation and oversight, then it would be really easy. But this Congress does not have the appetite to do that under its current leadership.

51:18The other point about accountability, most people forget that President Donald Trump granted a full and complete pardon to former Honduran President Juan Orlando Hernandez, who was convicted in the U.S. of. He was convicted on drug trafficking and weapons charges, bringing drugs into this country.

51:47And the President of the United States gave him a sweetheart deal. If we were going to hold people accountable, that was a good place to start. Someone who had already been convicted, and instead of holding them accountable, they got a pardon, a complete pardon by the President.

52:06So there are a lot of instances here where I think we could have introduced accountability and we failed to do that. Ms. Batco, I'm really interested in, you talked about the success that Denver has had in reducing unsheltered homelessness.

52:24And in my own district in the Boston area I actually founded a couple of residential drug rehabilitation facilities one of them for children actually because the kids were so young we couldn't co-locate them with adults.

52:45I'm just wondering what percentage or what element of, you know, drug rehabilitation and substance abuse services, how much of that played in the success of what you did in Denver?

53:07To clarify, I'm evaluating Denver's work, not the person actually doing it in Denver. Okay. But... In your evaluation, what do you think? How do you think it went? Just to speak to something that Mr. Webster mentioned about how many people have been housed.

53:22Denver has housed over 9,000 people since 2023 and is tracking housing. I don't have the numbers directly in front of me on the percent of people that in Denver had substance use challenges, but they do have a robust response for substance use, including their Roads to Recovery program and also available residential treatment programs for people.

53:47I see. That's one of the key pieces. You know, we've had a couple of these homeless enclaves. Mass and Cass is the one that is closest to my district. It's on the border between myself and Ms. Presley.

54:01And, you know, there's a lot of open drug dealing on the street while that's going on, And we're trying to get at the homeless issue. And it's been very, very difficult. We have struggled.

54:12We have struggled, multi-year struggles, in trying to clean that up. And I was just trying to figure out if there's any lessons learned for us in Boston from what you went through or what you evaluated in Denver.

54:27Sure. I think that one of the most important things is that there are people who are struggling with homelessness. And there are people who are struggling with substance use. And sometimes there are people struggling with both.

54:39And people who are struggling with substance use need a treatment intervention that's effective. And people who are struggling with homelessness need a housing intervention. And that is one of the things that we've learned.

54:49And also that in Denver tangible offers of resources to people who are living outside including shelter and real housing help people to move in and serve as a platform for working on other things in their lives like substance use and employment.

55:07I don't have time, but there's also the mental health issue where we have, you know, deinstitutionalized a lot of things and through cost reasons, but that's another element of this as well. Thank you for your testimony, Mr. Chairman.

55:21I yield back.

55:23Thank you, sir. and now can recognize Mr. Burleson from Missouri.

55:28Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I want to start with a simple question. Is the program working? We're $40 trillion in debt, and we're trying to evaluate how every dollar is spent. But I think what we're recognizing here is that the more money we spend, we're not getting any better outcomes out of this.

55:48If you spend more money every year, add more beds every year, and hire more people every year, Unfortunately, the streets seem to get worse and the program isn't working. In Los Angeles, a federal continuum of care awards have risen 213% since 2005.

56:10City has budgeted about $4.4 billion since 2022, and there's been little to almost no accountability. The system pays for inputs, beds, salaries, contracts. We know that there's waste and there's fraud and that it's widespread.

56:29Spencer Pratt, who ran for mayor, showcased this on a national stage. He said that every dime of the homeless industry complex is money laundering and the people are getting rich off of misery. This is backed up by data.

56:47It's backed up by reports by Cicero Institute in the review of Form 990s showing provider compensation among the Continuum of Care Award nonprofits grew about 118% from the year 2013 to 2024. So to put that in context, during that same period, inflation only grew 34%.

57:11So these entities grew in their revenue nearly four times inflation. So it's clear companies are making money off of off of this other people misery and to that Mr Cho I want to ask a question You mentioned that we have a homeless industrial complex Would you agree with that state?

57:38Is that what you've said in the past?

57:39Yes, sir, and so has HUD Secretary Scott Turner.

57:44In your firsthand investigations, what are you seeing in that way?

57:50Could you repeat your question one more?

57:51So in your investigations, are you seeing people, Like, are you seeing entities or these nonprofits, are they getting rich off of providing these services?

58:03Absolutely, especially their top CEOs and executives. Many of them are making high six-figure salaries, and the staff are also making six-figure salaries, and they're holding fundraisers where they're raising millions of dollars. Yet, as this commission's noted, we don't see the results.

58:22There's record homelessness on the streets, record drug overdose deaths. Meanwhile these nonprofits are lining their pockets. And of course there are good ones out there as well, especially the faith-based nonprofits where they take a different approach from housing first and harm reduction.

58:39And the focus, again, should be more on recovery and treatment. And that is where we're seeing a lot of success on the streets.

58:47All right. Mr. Webster, I'm going to name this quote, and I'm just going to ask if you know who said it. Since 1987, when I first proposed an overhaul of the welfare system, I have argued that welfare recipients should be required to work.

59:02Any guesses? I'm going to pick Bill Clinton for 200. It was Joe Biden, but you're close. Bill Clinton said in both campaigns in 92 and 96, he said, real reform should impose time limits and require work and provide childcare so that people can actually go to work without hurting their children.

59:37Is that the view today of the Democratic Party?

59:41Well, I can't speak for the Democratic Party, and I don't want to, but I do think that what we're missing in the Continuum of Care program is a more robust and accountable answer to these kinds of wraparound stories.

60:00services that actually meet people where they at and move them to a different place. I do want to be fair, though. There are a number of continuums of care that are showing results and that are doing a good job.

60:13I think that when you understand that, you know, more than 50% of all the homelessness is in the West Coast, Oregon, Washington, and California, we have some real challenges over there that dwarf the successes of some of the more local and smaller organizations and efforts.

60:33And I think that all those wraparound services are a part of it.

60:37Is handing people these drug care packs, is that helping them achieve their goal of getting a job? Not in my view.

60:50Mr. Walkinshaw.

60:51Thank you, Mr. Chairman. well, this Democrat believes the American people are working pretty damn hard. They're working hard, they're paying more, and they're getting less. And unless they're members of the Trump family, they don't have Russian oligarchs to fund their weddings or taxpayer dollars to fund their tungsten mines in Kazakhstan.

61:10Mr. Cho, just a question for you, and we'll go down the line. when housing becomes more expensive, do you agree that more Americans are then at risk of becoming homeless? Yes or no?

61:28No.

61:29Mr. Webster, when housing becomes more expensive, do you believe that makes more Americans at risk of becoming homeless? Potentially. Okay. Ms. Batko, yes or no?

61:40Yes.

61:41Okay. I think it's basic economics. If housing is more expensive, more people are going to be unable to afford that housing. And right now, housing is way too expensive. People in this country who do everything right, who work hard, play by the rules, are struggling to rent or buy a home.

62:02Young people in this country don't believe they will ever be able to buy a home. High interest rates, which are skyrocketing as we speak, exacerbated by the obscene, obscene deficits this Congress has run up, lock people into existing homes, and lock other people out of the market completely So yes we should root out the waste we should investigate the fraud It too bad the actual doge the namesake of this committee failed so abysmally to do any of that as the GAO has recently documented But if we care about homelessness, why are we making housing more expensive?

62:48President Trump's tariffs are adding $17,500 to the cost of a new home. The result of that is 450,000 fewer homes being built. Fewer homes being built, more homelessness. Think about it. Just when we need more housing, and all of our witnesses today have expressed their concern about homelessness.

63:20Just when we need more housing, President Trump and this Congress are making it more expensive. The lumber and steel tariffs are a tax on housing. We're taxing the thing we most need at the moment we most need it.

63:34And if we want fewer people to be without a home, maybe we shouldn't make the homes more expensive. A simple thought. Ms. Bakko, I want to just delve into one of the topics that I think is inherent in all of the testimony we've heard today, and it's the connection between housing costs, substance abuse or other challenges people are facing in homelessness.

64:02Are there parts of the country, are there states, are there communities that have high rates of substance abuse in low rates, relatively low rates of homelessness? I'm sorry, sir. I don't have those numbers off the top of my

64:24head, but I'm happy to come back to the office with that. What I can tell you is that the GAO released a report indicating that for every $100 increase in rent, homelessness goes up 9%.

64:37Got it. I think it is the case that there are parts of the country that have very high rates and have suffered through real epidemics of drug use and substance abuse, but still have low rates of homelessness because housing costs are low in those communities I think when you go back and look at the data you you will find that Can you just talk us through we heard about the perceived failures in Los Angeles Can you talk us through some of the other success stories?

65:10You've talked through your success in Denver because there are communities in this country succeeding in addressing this issue and having

65:20success. Can you give us a couple of those? Yeah, sure. I think one of the most important things about talking about whether or not the program is working is to understand that homelessness is a dynamic.

65:29And so the numbers that we heard earlier, the 755,000 people, over the course of the year, between 1.2 and 1.5 million people experience homelessness. And really, Congress should think about homelessness as a math equation.

65:44People are coming into homelessness constantly and the system is trying to get people out of homelessness and if those numbers are not in balance homelessness grows even if the number of exits from homelessness grows and so to your point in places that have seen success like Denver you are seeing where they have ramped up housing placements so in Dallas they implemented a street to home model which focused on resolving encampments in the downtown area.

66:17They've reported an 89% reduction in daily street counts.

66:22Your time is up, ma'am. Thank you.

66:28Next, recognize Ms. Mace. Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and you did a wonderful presentation on the price of diesel today, by the way, on the floor. Thank you. One of your best. Thank you. Speaking of data, I would encourage my colleagues across the aisle to go back and look at data.

66:40Look at the number of illegals that we house in this country that make the price go up because that's housing that doesn't go to actual citizens of this country. It seems to me that the more money we spend on combating homelessness the more homelessness we have in our country.

66:56Blue cities in the country appear to be particularly afflicted like those of LA. There's a reason why Karen Bass didn't show up today. Spending more and accelerating their homelessness epidemic while giving the homeless drugs allowing them to shoot up.

67:10Interesting take on how to handle homelessness. It's really not what we should be doing in any other city in the country. With the worsening homelessness problem particularly in LA, it is shameful that the mayor of Los Angeles Karen Bass refused to show up today but no one should be surprised she didn show up when California was burning The people of LA needed her and she was nowhere to be found You can just ask the wildfire victims Spencer Pratt and all of those whose homes burned to the ground because she was in Africa, putting Africa first and not her own American citizens.

67:43We will do the work to uncover the fraud. That's what this committee is for. So my first question goes to Mr. Webster today. Since 2025, how much money has Los Angeles spent on combating homelessness over the last year?

68:01So since, thank you for the question. So since 2025, well, in 2024, $240 million were provided by the federal government to continue with care. 2025 was just a little bit more than that. but they didn't do it through a competition because there was a lawsuit involved.

68:23The city of Los Angeles provides its own money. How much is that? I testified a little earlier. It's about $4 billion between the city and the county.

68:34Of all the money that's been spent since 2025 on homelessness or combating homelessness, what did you call it? To continue care?

68:41Continue with care program is the chief program.

68:44That's the name of the program? Continue with care like it's health care for drug addicts, I guess. So over $4 billion, $4 billion and change, how much is that per homeless person in LA?

68:57I don't have that number off the top of my head, but it's a lot.

69:01I think my staff is somewhere in the range of $30,000 per person. However, they're using a $2.3 billion number and another number, so it actually might be higher than that. That, to me, seems like a studio apartment for a year in a high, and in a very expensive, maybe blue city or blue town.

69:22The tens of dollars, tens of thousands of dollars spent for a homeless person are being spent through the homelessness industrial complex, I'm going to call it, enough to actually house every homeless person for a year, as I said.

69:34Why are we spending so much money and getting so little out of it? Why is homelessness growing for every extra dollar we spend? Why is that?

69:42Well, I think in Los Angeles, it's pretty clear that the continuum of care, the Los Angeles Homeless Services Administration has done a very, very poor job in managing its contracts, living up to the law and regulation in terms of having sufficient financial oversight, providing money to entities that do not provide services, and also to underwriting.

70:10How much of that goes to organizations that aren't providing services, do we think? Do we know?

70:16It's really a case-by-case basis. I would look at something like I just read in Politico this afternoon that there's an organization that took over the Skid Row Housing Trust, and because of the significant challenges in like operations, and it's the fact that a lot of homeless housing just doesn't scale.

70:36It doesn't make, it doesn't pencil out.

70:40Yeah. So I was reading too earlier that there was almost $2.3 billion meant for combating homelessness and they don't know where it went or was misused.

70:51Well, there were two analyses. One of them was for the state of California We're $24 billion over the last five years. The state of California actually did an audit and asked their Homelessness Administration, and they couldn't tell where the money went for five years from, I want to say it was 2021 to 2024 in Los Angeles.

71:14I'm also the executive director of an organization called the LA Alliance for Human Rights. We sued the city and the county of Los Angeles, and through that lawsuit, One last question. I got 10 seconds.

71:24How much drug paraphernalia is given out in these programs?

71:28I couldn't tell you that, but I could tell you what we see on the streets of Skid Row, and it is tons and tons of drug paraphernalia.

71:36Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

71:38Thank you, Ms. Mase. Mr. Frost, you're recognized.

71:42Thank you so much, Mr. Chair. So our country has made significant progress in lowering the percentage of homeless veterans over the past 15 years. I want to talk about that real quick. Veteran homelessness has decreased by about 56% since 2010.

71:56Programs like HUD Veterans Affairs Supportive Housing, HUD-VASH, and Supportive Services for Veteran Families have helped play an important role in that. Ms. Zabedko, VA homeless programs following a housing-first approach, gathering veterans into stable housing and then providing the services they need to remain housed, why has that approach worked so well for veterans?

72:16This is correct. Veteran homelessness has decreased substantially and remained low despite changes in the economics of the country This has been driven by two programs primarily the HUD program which is a supportive housing program that administered jointly by HUD and the VA where people receive a housing voucher and VA healthcare and treatment services.

72:42And then the supportive services for veteran families program, which is a homelessness prevention and rapid rehousing program. And the reason that these programs are so effective is that they were scaled to the size of the problem that they were trying to solve.

72:55So more resources and making sure we had the wraparound work was important. And it followed the Housing First policy, correct?

73:04Correct.

73:06Veterans are not the only vulnerable population that experience homelessness. What lessons do you think we can take from the VA's model?

73:12Well, I think that we've seen that when the resources are available, both the housing side and the services side, that people can stabilize in housing and thrive. This is a struggle that has been pointed out for supportive housing programs that are funded by other funding streams is being able to meet the high supportive services needs.

73:35I think the other thing that we can learn from this is that prevention and rapid rehousing assistance are helpful in making sure that people who have temporary financial hardship and fall into homelessness or at risk of homelessness, need not spend long periods of time in homelessness experiencing the harm associated with it and potentially eventually experiencing chronic homelessness.

74:01Ms. Batko, is arresting the homeless veteran a part of the program?

74:05No.

74:07Mr. Webster, same question. Is arresting homeless veterans a part of the successful program to help eliminate veteran homelessness?

74:16I'm sorry, I don't understand. Are you asking me if the Veterans Administration I just say yes or no, yeah. Do you know if that's an official part of it?

74:23Yeah.

74:25No, I don't think that.

74:26No, it's not.

74:26I don't think that's a serious question.

74:28Well, it is a serious question. And the reason I asked Mr. Webster is your organization advocates for arresting the homeless if they sleep on the streets, is that correct?

74:37No, it's not correct.

74:38It's not correct?

74:40No.

74:41Mr. Chair, I have a UC to put in, a Washington Post article, how one billionaire's crusade against homeless became Trump's playbook. I put that in because quote cities should make it a crime to sleep outside It is the official position of the Trump administration version of the Cicero proposals that are law in 15 states with 11 making it a crime to sleep outside.

75:07This is a policy that the Cicero Institute has been pushing in states across the countries and cities across the countries as well to make it a crime to sleep outside and make it a crime for people who are experiencing homelessness.

75:19Suppose someone loses their job, they fall behind on rent, they become homeless, they have nowhere to sleep, and so they sleep outside. Under the policies your organization supports, that person can be removed from public spaces and potentially face criminal penalties for sleeping outside.

75:34How exactly does somebody being put in jail and receiving a criminal charge or fine, how does that help and impact their ability to get their life back on track and get into housing?

75:44I'm happy to respond. In Jacksonville, Florida, where Florida has a statewide camping ban, Jacksonville does arrest people, but it's not because of our policy, it's because that's what the state of Florida determined what they do.

75:59What's great about the program- But this is something your organization's pushing for. So how does it help somebody? Nonprofit organizations that work on diversion then go into the jails and they say, would you prefer to stay in jail or would you like to engage in our diversion program on the condition that you'll be released from jail?

76:14And so it actually has been a successful program to get people into diversion and get them out of jail and get them out of sleeping on the streets.

76:21It has not been a successful program. And in fact, when you actually go and you speak with people that are experiencing this, what you find is that people are already having a hard time to get their life back on track, to get into housing, get arrested, get fines put on them, and it makes it even harder to get into housing.

76:39I don't know how you could sit here and say that arresting someone, putting a fine on them, adding to their criminal record is gonna help them find a place to live. You're not interested in ending homelessness, you're interested in hiding it.

76:49And that's the difference. And so, thank you, I'd like to yield back.

76:52Your time is up. Thank you, sir. Next, Ms. Boebert.

76:58Thank you, Chairman Burchett. And thank you to the witnesses who actually showed up today. Mayor Karen Bass was absolutely invited. She is a former member of this house and she should understand how disrespectful it is to not attend an invite like this.

77:17Los Angeles has taken $2 billion and federal homeless funds. She appointed herself to the board that spends it Then she skips more than half of those meetings and skipped this hearing as well That is not a scheduling conflict That is contempt for the taxpayers who are paying for her failure.

77:40Mr. Webster, 45,000 people in the streets of L.A., counting numbers are even higher. Rand and Lhasa undercounts by nearly 40%. Would you say that Los Angeles homeless policies are a failure?

77:59I would indeed.

78:01Bass gave herself a seat on the commission that distributes $241 million in federal funds this year. Do you believe, Mr. Webster, that writing her own checks creates a conflict of interest?

78:16I can't comment on that.

78:20I think it's pretty dirty. I'll comment for you. I think it's pretty dirty when a mayor appoints herself to a board that she doesn't show up for most of the meetings and then is using federal tax dollars to pay herself extra money.

78:33Mr. Webster, should Congress investigate whether LASA is putting federal homeless dollars in the hands of people who are here illegally?

78:42Absolutely. In fact, there was a University of Chicago working paper that demonstrated that in four jurisdictions of the United States that non-citizen asylum seekers contributed to a significant portion of the increase of homelessness in, I think it was between, just in the past like four or five years.

79:07Yes, and in this homeless industrial complex that is being created by the taxpayers of America, don't you think that those resources could actually be beneficial if they were only going to American citizens and not to illegal aliens?

79:22I do think that there should be a prioritization for folks who are citizens and who are in the country legally.

79:29I agree.

79:30Receives federal benefits.

79:31Yes, sir. Mr. Webster, final question for you. So is there a financial incentive for Los Angeles to keep housing first going when the streets are getting worse?

79:42It's an interesting question. There kind of is a financial incentive and it has to do with state law. In 2016 California passed a state law that every state dollar that goes towards homelessness must be housing first.

79:49So if you're a local or a city or a county and you're applying for the state of California for homelessness assistance, yeah there is an incentive that you must follow Housing First. And that used to be the policy of HUD on its notice of funding opportunity.

80:15There was kind of a scorecard or a checklist that basically made sure that in applying for federal funds your program was quote-unquote Housing First

80:24compliant. Thank you very much Mr. Webster. Mr. Cho, Housing First became official federal policy in 2013. More than a third of the homeless abuse heroin, fentanyl, or meth. Colorado lost 1,800-plus people to overdose just last year.

80:35How many billions have gone out the door since 2013 when housing first became this official federal policy?

80:50That is a great question. I don't have access to that number, but it is in the billions,

80:55Plural as you stated billions of dollars. Yes, sir. What should this committee write into law? So another Excuse me. So a mother seeking help actually gets sobriety and safety and not a hotel room in a needle

81:10Well, the issue that we're seeing Is not just a lack of affordable housing necessarily. It's the lack of requirements And that's the problem with housing first right now We are essentially giving away apartments, studios on waterfront properties with zero requirements to find jobs, zero requirements to go into recovery and treatment.

81:28There has to be some type of incentive in order to live in any taxpayer-funded facility. At the same time, we should measure then results. At the end of the day, we're not interested in just warehousing homeless drug addicts were interested in saving lives and restoring lives so they can start contributing back into society and that is what any decent bill should be

81:57measuring. Thank you very much. Miss Vaco real quick, Denver hired you. You advertised a 45% drop in unsheltered PIT and a 98% drop in big encampments. How many of those people are even in permanent housing or off drugs or still housed?

82:13The truth is you just see less tents in Denver because you've put them somewhere else and you didn't have an actual solution. The auditor says that Denver spent about billion hid million and cannot track unique outcomes did Urban Institute audit the books or stamp the city talking points should I answer the question we were hired as the city of

82:43Denver's independent evaluator we are still conducting the evaluation Denver has rehoused over a thousand people or 8,000 people and we are examining the cost

82:55associated with it. Permanently rehoused or they're just living off the tax dollars in these hotels?

83:00Thank you Mr. Chairman. I yield. Did you get your question answered more or less? Okay.

83:05Mr. Tlaib, you're recognized, please. Thank you so much. I do want to start off with requesting Adams consent to enter into a record of statement by a coalition of housing and homelessness lawyers and advocates led by the National Homelessness Law Center.

83:19I would like to read from it. During today's hearing subcommittee members will hear from individuals who purport to share our belief in the need to address this urgent crisis. However, we expect their testimony to be premised on deeply harmful misconceptions about homelessness.

83:35We submit this statement to ensure the subcommittee members receive accurate information about the causes of and solutions to homelessness. So I hope my colleagues do read this. I want to start asking you questions Mr. Webster.

83:47in what ways will your organizations and partners benefit from creating a reality where large-scale homelessness continues to grow?

83:56I'm sorry, could you repeat that?

83:58How will your organization benefit by watching homelessness numbers increase?

84:04It will not.

84:05Oh, really? Because your institute, Cicero, where you work has ties to defense contractors and private prisons. Let me finish. Private prisons and your billionaire founder stands to make a fortune off of locking people up.

84:17You can you can sneer all you want. I'm telling you the truth. I would like to submit for the record Mother Jones article the Planteer Billionaires Passion Project is criminalizing homelessness. So you're telling me arrest the unhoused, fine them, and then put them in detention camps that you can profit from.

84:36These are your donors. It's a record on donors. You have donors that will benefit from imprisoning and arresting homeless neighbors.

84:46I think the more useful question is not whether Joe Longstay is un-pel-pillar in certain circles. No, don't tell me how to question you. You're not elected. I was elected.

84:52I telling you you know what my residents ask me to do in Detroit You know what they ask me to do They say Rashida how do people profit from these policies Your organization will profit Your donors will profit Sir, I'm not mistaken.

85:05Your organization actually pushed, was a major player in Texas, to adopt a statewide camping ban in Texas. Oh, you're so proud. What do we do with those individuals? We put them in the prisons and jails that your donors benefit from financially, correct?

85:23correct? That's not correct. Well, your donors say otherwise. The camping bans that we advocate for are class C misdemeanors, many of which are penalized by citations, which can be adjudicated when they receive housing services.

85:37Your donors benefit from for-profit prison schemes. We know

85:42that. We can't make a profit. You want to arrest them. You want to make money off of our homeless neighbors. Now, Ms. Batco, the Cesaro Institute claims that the rates of homelessness have continue to increase despite increasing budgets for homeless service providers and proposed expanded bans on camping or sleeping and increase law enforcement as solutions, right?

85:55But the period between 2006 and 2019 national data shows camping bans increased by 92%, correct? And law enforcement spending more than doubled. It costs so much more to police and in prison than to house and support,

86:15correct? It does cost more to police and in prison than it does to support. Look it up. It costs more.

86:25In Denver specifically, they failed. You can't police away homelessness. You can't arrest away homelessness. The only people that benefit are the people that actually own the prisons, in many cases, the donors at the Cesaro Institute.

86:37They benefit. There's absolutely no credible evidence for anything Cicero and Discovery are pushing here today. They have literally no credibility with people that actually talk to our homeless neighbors and they can shout and all they want about it but chairman with all due respect I wish we had a person that had gone through homelessness as a person that would actually testify here.

87:01Somebody that was successful and we because we know we know while Republican witnesses here may try to sell otherwise. We know the housing first approach not only in my district but in everyone's district means getting people housing they can afford alongside supportive services that they need.

87:19And I can tell you right now even in my own district housing is becoming literally unachievable Right now many homes are turning into rental properties where they paying over 40 to 50 of their own income These are working people.

87:38And instead they're living out of their cars and they become homelessness or in transit and they can't find affordable housing. But you all can huff and puff and say all these things, but at the end, at the end, it is not a homeless neighbor that is before us telling us what worked for them.

87:54they literally were able to get housing and so forth and they will tell you it's probably a HUD program. It's probably a program that again over and over again has shown us if funded properly and it's implemented properly can be incredibly successful.

88:07With that again I want to apologize to many of those that work with our homeless community. Shame on us for not again bringing them to the table and actually listening to them. Thank you and I yield.

88:14Thank you ma'am. Mr. Fallon

88:20out of Texas you're recognized. Mr. Chairman, thank you. Ms. Batko, you work for the Urban Institute. Is it fair description that your mission is to combat homelessness, give or

88:30take? The Urban Institute's mission is to inform policy and practice to improve communities

88:36and lives. So one of those would be falling under that umbrella of combating homelessness and at least mitigating, if not eliminating it? Yes. Okay. And how long have you been

88:45in this career field, roughly? I've been at the Urban Institute for over nine years.

88:50Have you been in this career field for 10, 15, 20 years?

88:53More than 20.

88:54More than 20, okay. Do you think over the 20 years you've done a good job in better outcomes and combating homelessness? And also, do you feel the Urban Institute is doing the same?

89:05I'm sorry, could you repeat that second half of the question?

89:09You're combating homelessness, you're making the communities better, you're looking for good outcomes, you and the Urban Institute?

89:15I can't speak for the Urban Institute, but-

89:17Do you think the Urban Institute is effective in their mission?

89:21Yes.

89:22Okay. Do you think that enough taxpayer dollars has been spent to mitigate the homelessness issue? Do you think there's been enough spent of taxpayer dollars or do you think there should be more?

89:38I think that tax dollars are determined by Congress and the appropriations process. Right. I think that those tax dollars should be guided by the evidence and what we know.

89:48Okay, so it's more or enough? Do you have a choice? I think that we've seen that the scale of the resources currently applied to homelessness and housing. Mr. Chairman, I claim back, reclaim my time.

90:00Okay, so I find it interesting that the federal government, since 2007, that's the first year that HUD had fully comparable national figures. And they've spent, the federal government, in answer to Ms. Bovert's question, $51 billion to combat homelessness since 2007.

90:21The state of California, their own auditor said they spent $24 billion between 2018 and 2023. So a fair estimate, if you want to go back to 07, was probably about, just in California, 40 billion.

90:32And L.A., county and city, about another 10. So that's $100 billion. And that's not including the other 49 states. So a pretty fair estimate would be probably in the neighborhood of a quarter of a trillion dollars.

90:45So let's go back to the earliest year that HUD says we should be able to compare. In 2007 to 2025, Ms. Bakko, do you think homelessness rose or fell? Can you repeat the years?

90:572007 to 25. It rose. It did rise by 15%. We dropped a quarter of a trillion dollars, and what did we get for it? 15% increase in homelessness. Ms. Bakko, you're working for a 501c3, is that correct?

91:14Correct.

91:14What is your salary? What is your total compensation?

91:17I don't understand how that's pertinent to this.

91:18Okay, so you're not going to answer. We estimate it's probably in the neighborhood of $200,000. Do you know how much your CEO, Sarah Wartell, makes?

91:25Not off the top of my head.

91:27I do. It's $971,063. How about your senior VP of research and programs? $407,826. VP and executive director of work rise? $397,461. Chief operating officer? $377,915. Senior VP impact and external affairs? $376,572. Institute of fellow research?

91:50$349,939. VP, controller, and treasurer? $292,576. So yeah, some people have been very successful in the last 18 years combating homelessness. They're getting rich off it. If you're CEO, we wanna take those numbers back to about 18 years, she's probably made in the neighborhood of $15 million.

92:11Ms. Batco, is it a good or bad outcome for a human being to do crack cocaine? Bad. I agree. Good or bad outcome to use heroin? Bad. I agree as well. So you would agree that it a negative outcome if this human being does any hard drugs for themselves the community and society as a whole agree I believe that drug use is damaging to people in community so a negative outcome for those three I would think I don't want to put words in your mouth so is it a good use of taxpayer dollars to

92:45fund crack pipes I'm not an expert on substance use treatment and it's a

92:51really simple question I think you got trillions of brain cells between your years the good Lord gave you. Do you think it's a good or bad use of taxpayer funds to buy crack

93:00pipes for homeless people? Congress determines what money is spent on... Okay, so we're not going

93:04to get an answer there. How about fentanyl needles? What's the question? Do you think it's a good or bad use of taxpayer dollars to fund fentanyl needles for the homeless? I think that Congress decides...

93:17Okay, so I would say, well, I am in Congress, and I say that's a horrible use of taxpayer money. You're exacerbating the problem. You're not mitigating it. I find it disgusting that in your five minutes that you open with, you never used or mentioned drug use once.

93:32The core fundamental issues of homelessness revolve around drug addiction, alcohol abuse, and mental illness. Those are the things to be treated. And for my colleague to sit there and say that these folks, if they're treated, are not going to end up in prison.

93:43No, the most successful outcome is for them to get off the crack, get off the hard drugs, get their lives together, because the government's not going to do it for them. They have to do it for themselves.

93:54Richard Chairman, I yield back.

93:55Thank you, Mr. Fallon. Mr. Gill, you're recognized.

94:01Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thanks for your leadership on this committee and keeping the conference together here and fighting to cut waste, fraud, and abuse from the federal government. We certainly really appreciate that.

94:14And thank you to the witnesses for taking the time. Ms. Batco, do you support defunding the police?

94:21I have not been asked to come here to speak about police appropriations.

94:27That's fine. Do you support defunding the police?

94:30I do not.

94:31You do not. Do you remember tweeting in June of 2020 that you do?

94:39No.

94:40DEI Petty tweeted, quote, today we're calling for the immediate cutting of all police budgets by at least half. You responded to it and said, thank you for your staff's leadership. That sounds like you were advocating for defunding the police does it not I can see the tweet that you holding up and I am not DEI Petty I know but you responded to DEI Petty saying thank you for your staff leadership whenever DEI Petty was advocating for cutting police budgets.

95:07I don't currently have a Twitter account and I can't see what you're holding up. You don't currently have one, but did you have one? Is this your was your Twitter account Samantha Badco? No. This was not your Twitter account?

95:18No. You're You're telling me this was not your Twitter account?

95:25My Twitter handle was not SamanthaBacco.

95:28No, it's theSamanthaAB. That's the Twitter. We'll come back to that then. If we, we'll revisit that after this hearing, if that sounds good to you.

95:40Happy to.

95:46Let me ask you this. Do you think that police should be the first responders to emergencies?

95:58To emergencies?

95:59Whenever somebody calls 911, do you believe that police officers should be the first responders?

96:05I think it depends what type of emergency it is.

96:08Okay. You think it depends on what time? Could you elaborate there?

96:13Sure. If I'm having a heart attack, I'd like a paramedic.

96:16Right. If somebody is robbing a home, let's say, do you think that police should be the first responders?

96:23I'm sure.

96:24Okay. I'm glad to hear that. We're going to come back to this Twitter history because I find that really interesting. And I think we'll have a lot to say about this in the future.

96:35And with that, Mr. Chairman, I yield back.

96:39Thank you, Mr. Gale. I don't see Pete Springer. Is he coming back? I mean, Sessions, would you like to go or would you? Okay, you go ahead. Are you guys done? Looks like, tell me, but you go right ahead.

96:57All right, well, oh my goodness. As for usual, it's a very strange hearing. I guess one takeaway I take from this hearing is that my colleagues across the aisle should actually spend more time at home in their communities talking to local leaders and organizations that actually work with unhoused populations and with people who have addiction challenges.

97:20But I am actually interested, Mr. Webster, in your opening statement you said that the goals of housing programs should be employment sobriety family reunification and long housing among some other things And I completely agree with you.

97:37And in fact, I think that's a really important point. But I think one question I have that I am confused about kind of the argument that you're making here is that yourself and others who have testified and asked questions today seem to be attacking the Continuum of Care program that the federal government funds, which is the program that provides emergency housing, that provides long-term stable housing for people who have addiction, that provides wraparound services.

98:10And so I don't understand what your point is. Can you, like, who do you think should be providing these services if it's not the nonprofits who are on the ground working in these communities?

98:22First of all, the Continuum Care program does not provide emergency services. That's the emergency solutions grant, which is another fund, another program from HUD, which is formula funded.

98:34But the question I'm asking you is who, is it the government? Are you a big government guy? Do you think the government should be providing these services?

98:42I think that states and localities should be empowered by the federal government to determine and to create the flexibility that best provides the outcomes.

98:56But who? Like state agencies?

98:59I think some state agencies. I'll tell you a great example. I'm not asking about an example. In Los Angeles, in California.

99:05No, no, no, sir, I'm asking. Do you, because you're arguing essentially to defund one of the most important federal programs that actually puts resources directly into our communities to address the housing crisis immediately.

99:19I'm not advocating defund the continuum of care program. I'm acting to reform it. Okay. Because it's done a very poor job in meeting its outcomes of reducing people who are living and dying on the streets.

99:31And I think instead of allowing unaccountable and unelected nonprofit consortiums, I think there should be greater monitoring and accountability.

99:39Who provides those services instead of the nonprofits?

99:43I'm sorry?

99:44Who provides the services instead of the nonprofits then? I think there's a variety. Because let me just make clear, the nonprofits are shelters, they're housing programs. Some are. They're drug rehabilitation programs, they're hospitals, they're clinics.

99:59Who's going to provide those services if you cut that funding and you reform the program to take that funding away i'm

100:04not advocating for cutting funding and i'm not advocating for getting rid of non-profit organizations

100:09i'm asking you a simple question who's going to provide the service i think you should have

100:14organizations that are accountable to what organizations it could be a non-profit organization it could become a county oh so it is not the ones you don't like no i'm i'm saying Well, that's true.

100:26It is the ones that don't produce outcomes. I don't want them funded.

100:30I'm going to reclaim my time here. Mr. Coe, I just, I really, I'm fascinated by your approach to all of this, and especially your comments that you made about addiction. And I really am not trying to attack anyone or anything.

100:42I come from a place that's very low income, where a lot of people struggle with addiction. And so I wonder if you yourself or anyone in your family has ever struggled with a major addiction.

101:00I've had friends, very close friends, who are currently struggling with drug addiction. Several who are addicted to fentanyl have also experienced loss.

101:11Yeah. And so, I mean, I guess I'm sorry to hear that. Actually, I'm sorry to hear that. And I think all of us in this society have experienced family members and friends who have struggled from addiction.

101:27I guess what I don't understand about the argument that you're making is I do understand the idea that there should be incentives to get people into housing. But knowing, for example, the people you know who are struggling with addiction, like they don't just get sober.

101:45You don't just snap your fingers and one day you're sober. And so how do you reconcile this idea that you should not give people housing to get sober in? I don't understand that. How would the people that you know, if they lost their home because of something that happened, if they lost a family member or somebody, like you would deny them a place to live?

102:09No, and that's a great question. I want to make a distinction very clear right now. There is no one-size-fits-all to the homeless drug crisis on the streets right now If there is a single mom who just lost her job has you know needs six months to get back on her feet and find a job I think giving her an apartment to you know, take that next step is perfectly fine.

102:27But what I'm talking about and what I've covered now for the past six years in Seattle, San Francisco, and Los Angeles are the people causing the most crime, chaos, and death on the streets.

102:38Yes, sir Cho, I really appreciate it, but this is my time. Let me just say, you proved our point. There is no one-size-fits-all. It is housing first. People do need assistance and

102:50without a yield back. Thank you, ma'am. Mr. Cho, what does the big media not show? Why do they not show the stark realities of street homeless in cities like LA and Seattle that we see in the videos?

103:03I know you've worked in major network television. Yeah, it's a question I still ask

103:10every single day, especially when it comes to left-wing corporate media like CNN and MSNOW. We are seeing a devastating homeless drug crisis on the streets that has taken thousands of lives. An entire generation of Americans have been killed due to the deadliest drug in our history called fentanyl.

103:30If we had 747 jets crashing every single day, I think it would be the lead story on every single network. But because it comes down to homelessness and drug addiction, it's what the network executives call not brand safe.

103:47It's hard to sell diapers or tea or back-to-school gear next to somebody overdosing on the streets. But what that's done is a disservice to our democracy, because the average American likely has no idea what's happening on the streets unless they live next to it.

104:06And when you don't have all of this information, you can't make the right call when it comes to voting, especially for lawmakers who are pushing the correct policies. Mr. Burchett, we're in an information war.

104:20And what I've seen in my time working in corporate media is the sin of omission. Whenever we talk about homelessness, we'd go to the experts who would keep saying that in order to solve it, you have to build more housing.

104:34What we rarely ever hear are the root causes of homelessness which are drug addiction mental illness and broken relationships And that when I been able to finally see for the past six years after leaving corporate media I started reporting on the front lines seeing the raw realities for myself I always like to say the video don't lie.

104:54And if you talk to the vast majority of the people on the streets, and I've done that for six years in San Francisco, LA, Seattle, Portland, and the homeless people on the streets will say that they're on the streets not because they can't afford the housing, it's because they have an addiction.

105:09So I encourage other fellow lawmakers and our mainstream media to start going into these communities and also taking the risks to show what's really happening on the ground.

105:19Is the federal government funding the injection of fentanyl and other illegal drugs?

105:25Did you ask, is the federal government funding that? In some cases, in some cities, yes. They're called safe injection sites.

105:35What portion of the homeless people you encounter living on the streets are drug addicted, mentally ill, or both?

105:42I would say 8 out of 10.

105:44Okay. Do these individuals simply lack affordable housing? No, not at all. All right. When you're in these neighborhoods that seem to be overrun with homelessness, is there a police presence?

105:59Unfortunately in Seattle we are down hundreds of police officers and there is a corner in Chinatown ID in Seattle known as 12th and Jackson. It has turned into a containment zone with virtually no police officers and what's been allowed to happen is that homeless drug addicts including dealers and other criminals have turned it into a black market of stolen goods and have essentially turned the businesses into a blight and that is the problem we're having in these west coast cities due to these harmful policies like housing first and harm reductions, the streets near these facilities have turned into human dumping grounds.

106:39Do you feel like the politicians in cities like LA and Seattle are sympathetic to these folks' plight, or do you think it's, let me back up, to the small businesses, do you think they're sympathetic to them?

106:51It seems like in those areas they're just kind of overrun with trash and filth

106:57and folks that are just laying on their curbs Yeah I can get into the hearts and minds of these politicians who are presiding over these issues right now but I do know that many have no solutions no immediate solutions all they're doing is doubling down on the current plan and the current plan is not working.

107:18Thank you. That gets

107:22to my next question for Mr. Webster. You feel like these entities that aren't solving or reducing these problems, shouldn't their funding be tied to some sort of performance? And how would that be measured?

107:33You have to do that pretty quick. Yes, sir. I do believe it should

107:37be tied to performance. The performance should be measured by various outcomes, such as increased incomes, successful referrals and completions to treatment, mental health stability, reductions in arrests or engagements with law enforcement. Family reunification is a great metric that covers a whole number of challenges.

108:02Thank you all very much. My unanimous, my time's out. By unanimous consent, I'd like to offer this statement from the Kingdom Warriors Foundation, an L.A.-based nonprofit. They've struggled to obtain funding from LASA, but due to the widespread fraud, they've not been able to gain that without objection.

108:17So ordered. And let's see, what do we got here? Closing, I want to thank our witnesses once again for their testimony. And with that, without objection, all members have five legislative days within which to submit materials and additional written questions for the witnesses, which will be forwarded to the witnesses.

108:38If there's no further business without objection, the subcommittee stands adjourned. Thank you all.